ambron
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#976
05-20-2024, 06:20 PM
ph2ter
Well, this is no longer an issue to be discussed between ph2ter and ambron, but between Matasović and Pronk-Tiethoff.
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Orentil
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#977
05-20-2024, 06:32 PM
(05-20-2024, 06:09 PM)ph2ter Wrote:(05-20-2024, 03:04 PM)ambron Wrote: ph2ter:"Common? How is that?"
Once again:
“The semantic connection between the Germanic and Slavic forms is not straightforward. The reflexes of the word in Slavic vary greatly in meaning and give the impression of being a relic rather than a relatively recent loanword: if the word was borrowed in slavic denoting a concrete item like glass or amber, we would expect the meaning to have been retained at least in some of the slavic form. The word has nowadays largely been regarded as an inherited word, although the etymology is not entirely clear.”
Only when someone does not want to admit obvious:This noun fits into variety of similar nouns borrowed from Germanic:
Ranko Matasović:
Germanic neuter thematic nouns in Slavic become masculina (Schenker 1993, Stender-Petersen 1927:513ff):
psl. *xlajwu 'pigsty, swinery' (old sl. xlevʺ, Croatian hlijev) in Proto-Germanic is the neuter *hlaiwan (old eng. hlæw, Goth. hlaiw 'burial mound'),
similar to *xus, *xuzu 'house' (old sl. xysʺ, xyzʺ) from p.germ. *husan (old eng. hus n., German das Haus),
psl. *pulku 'army' (old sl. plъkъ) < Germ. *fulkan (German das Volk),
psl *tunu 'fence' (old sl. tynъ) < germ. *tunan,
psl. *glazu 'glass' (old rus. glazky 'glass balls', Polish glaz) < germ. *glesan 'amber' (old hger. glas, old eng. glæs),
psl. *loku 'onion' (Croatian and Russian luk) < Germ. *laukan (old hger. louh, old eng. leac n.).
In Proto-Germanic, as in most older Germanic languages, the stress was fixed on the first syllable in the word. At the time of borrowing, the stress was therefore on the first syllable in Proto-Slavic, and according to the Illic-Svityč rule, the mentioned nouns became masculine.
Interestingly, like the change in English to amber, also in modern German we use a different word: Bernstein. Glas we use for glass. So, yes, it is possible that words get lost and are replaced by other words. This questions the approach to look on single words to track populations.
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ph2ter
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#978
05-20-2024, 06:47 PM (This post was last modified: 05-20-2024, 06:48 PM by ph2ter.)
(05-20-2024, 06:32 PM)Orentil Wrote: Interestingly, like the change in English to amber, also in modern German we use a different word: Bernstein. Glas we use for glass. So, yes, it is possible that words get lost and are replaced by other words. This questions the approach to look on single words to track populations.
It is not only about a single word. These are important words (amber, beech etc.) which together make strong case for Proto-Slavic not being on the territory of Poland and on the territory of Carpathians.
This is why evidence is relativized by ambron and all those who think that Proto-Slavs were living in Poland or around Carpathians..
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Orentil
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#979
05-20-2024, 07:04 PM (This post was last modified: 05-20-2024, 07:08 PM by Orentil.)
(05-20-2024, 06:47 PM)ph2ter Wrote:(05-20-2024, 06:32 PM)Orentil Wrote: Interestingly, like the change in English to amber, also in modern German we use a different word: Bernstein. Glas we use for glass. So, yes, it is possible that words get lost and are replaced by other words. This questions the approach to look on single words to track populations.
It is not only about a single word. These are important words (amber, beech etc.) which together make strong case for Proto-Slavic not being on the territory of Poland and on the territory of Carpathians.
This is why evidence is relativized by ambron and all those who think that Proto-Slavs were living in Poland or around Carpathians..
In the end I believe more in aDNA to solve these riddles and we are on an excellent way, the white spots are getting smaller in a breathtaking speed since 2015 :-) But if it is going to fit to the assumptions of the linguists than everything is perfect.
PS: yes, I know, genes don't speak a language ;-)
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ambron
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#980
05-20-2024, 07:11 PM
ph2ter
I'm not relativizing, I'm just assessing the importance of the arguments. Hydronyms and toponyms are strong linguistic arguments, while the beech argument has been rejected by modern linguistics:
"The beech argument (German: Buchenargument) is a now mostly outdated argument in Indo-European studies..."
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ph2ter
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#981
05-20-2024, 08:15 PM
(05-20-2024, 07:11 PM)ambron Wrote: ph2terI'm not relativizing, I'm just assessing the importance of the arguments. Hydronyms and toponyms are strong linguistic arguments, while the beech argument has been rejected by modern linguistics:
"The beech argument (German: Buchenargument) is a now mostly outdated argument in Indo-European studies..."
No, it is not for Proto-Slavic:
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Alain
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#982
05-21-2024, 03:39 AM
(05-20-2024, 11:22 AM)Orentil Wrote: Knoviz is also just 40 km away from Rakovnik where this wonderful belt buckle out of massive gold was found. This buckle must have been out of the same workshop as several artefacts found in Gepidic Apahida in Transylvania, showing how connected these regions were.
Golden belt buckles with almandine inlays were very popular among the Germanic upper class and show the far-reaching trade relations, for example from Southeastern Europe to Central Europe or the example of the “Princess of Untersiebenbrunn” or as here the find from Kirchheim or Weingarten
I think the technique and use of the Alamndin was first brought to the West by the Goths/Ostrogoths on their migration from the Hellenized southern Russian-Hungarian region
https://bawue.museum-digital.de/object/79734
https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gr%C3%A4...Weingarten
earliest find in Germany
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Indo-European/ Most CWC … Polish-Lithuanian / German and Romanian
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ambron
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#983
05-21-2024, 07:45 AM
ph2ter
"...this is now an outdated argument, based on many factors including that the historical distribution of the beech trees was historically different from that of today, with certain species potentially extending to the Don River..."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beech_argument
Your maps probably cover only one species of beech.
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Radko
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#984
05-21-2024, 08:17 AM (This post was last modified: 05-21-2024, 08:38 AM by Radko.)
I've noticed that supposedly La Tene (no C14 dating) sample I13780 from Czechia has a modern match on MTree - https://www.yfull.com/mtree/K1a26c/ (TMRCA 1300 ybp)
I wonder if YF129222 is a German from Pomerania (or thereabouts)?
He belongs to this Y-DNA - https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FT62491/
Davidski wrote about I13780: "Doesn't stand out as much, butI wouldn't be shocked if it turned out that this was another soldier from the Thirty Years' War. But this time a German from Pomerania."
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ph2ter
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#985
05-21-2024, 10:26 AM (This post was last modified: 05-21-2024, 10:27 AM by ph2ter.)
(05-21-2024, 07:45 AM)ambron Wrote: ph2ter"...this is now an outdated argument, based on many factors including that the historical distribution of the beech trees was historically different from that of today, with certain species potentially extending to the Don River..."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beech_argument
Your maps probably cover only one species of beech.
There are only 2 species in Western Eurasia: fa*gus sylvatica nad fa*gus orientalis. fa*gus orientalis is found only in Turkey and Caucasus:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication...nsequences
The datasets The pollen data in part were extracted from the European Pollen Database (EPD; http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/epd) and thoroughly checked with respect to the chronologyand some other potential sources of error (223 sites), and inpart represent either unpublished data or data obtained fromthe published literature but not included in the EPD (185 sites) . A complete list and a location map of the fossil pollen sites arepresented in Supplementary Items S2 and S3, respectively. As the pollen morphology of fa*gus sylvatica cannot be distinguished from that of fa*gus orientalis Lipsky (Praglowski, 1982), a number of pollen records in the present-day distribution of F. orientalis are also mapped. The two species have, however, separate ranges which help to distinguisht heir respective histories.
Two different datasets of fossil material havebeen used to produce maps of the past distribution of fa*gus in Europe: those of pollen and macrofossils
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Vinitharya
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#986
05-21-2024, 01:12 PM
I thought the Czech La Tène sample was YP593, not YP1703.
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okshtunas
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#987
05-21-2024, 01:25 PM
(05-21-2024, 08:17 AM)Radko Wrote: I've noticed that supposedly La Tene (no C14 dating) sample I13780 from Czechia has a modern match on MTree - https://www.yfull.com/mtree/K1a26c/ (TMRCA 1300 ybp)I wonder if YF129222 is a German from Pomerania (or thereabouts)?
He belongs to this Y-DNA - https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FT62491/
Davidski wrote about I13780: "Doesn't stand out as much, butI wouldn't be shocked if it turned out that this was another soldier from the Thirty Years' War. But this time a German from Pomerania."
You keep bringing up Davidskis remark with its been said a few times on Anthrogenica the sample had higher IBD sharing with LA + EMA samples from the region.
He's life EMA IMHO. Nothing to do with 30 years war
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okshtunas
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#988
05-21-2024, 01:26 PM
(05-21-2024, 01:12 PM)Vinitharya Wrote: I thought the Czech La Tène sample was YP593, not YP1703.
That's the Y of the sample he matches on mtdna
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leonardo
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#989
05-21-2024, 01:34 PM
I don't know much about mtDNA other than I believe it's not as accurate to determine TMRCA because it doesn't have as many mutations. Is that correct?
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okshtunas
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#990
05-21-2024, 02:26 PM (This post was last modified: 05-21-2024, 02:27 PM by okshtunas.)
(05-21-2024, 01:34 PM)leonardo Wrote: I don't know much about mtDNA other than I believe it's not as accurate to determine TMRCA because it doesn't have as many mutations. Is that correct?
Something about the rate of mutation being too unstable and not entirely reliable.
My mtdna went from 7500, to 3500, to now 1200 in formation.
To put that in perspective, H11a2 is listed with a TMRCA of 900ybp, and has been found as far back as the IA (and earlier if I recall).
In other words his point was not worth making. Lol.
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